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對(duì)話建筑界：MLA+總監(jiān)訪談錄
董倩(Tina)
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【ABBS】：You have done many design projects， and successfully engaged in architecture education。At present，are you a professional architect and an educator at the same time？Which identity you like the most？
您有大量?jī)?yōu)秀的作品，同時(shí)也成功地介入到建筑教育中。那您現(xiàn)在既是一個(gè)職業(yè)建筑師，同時(shí)也是一個(gè)建筑教育工作者，二者之間更喜歡哪個(gè)身份？
【Markus Appenzelle】：Both - The two environments， business practice and education operate under different parameters。 A real project with a real client and usually a high level of time pressure often does not allow for extensive discourse into fields that I am interested in。In that respect， the educational systems enjoy more freedom and provide the room to explore alternative ideas。 When involved in education and public debates，one continuously is exposed to – often young – people with fresh minds and a different view of the world。 This allows me to sense what new trends and problems are or might emerge in the near future and this is an important ingredient to developing architectural and urban design that not only responds to today’s problems but also to those we will be dealing with tomorrow。
兩個(gè)都很喜歡，這兩個(gè)環(huán)境都是在實(shí)踐和教育這兩個(gè)不同的參數(shù)下進(jìn)行的。面對(duì)的對(duì)象是需要實(shí)現(xiàn)的工程和需要溝通的對(duì)象。通常情況下，一個(gè)有實(shí)際客戶的工程項(xiàng)目下，我通常都沒有多余的時(shí)間把大量的論述融入到這個(gè)我喜歡的領(lǐng)域。而教育制度就不一樣了，它更傾向于自主發(fā)展，提供了很多機(jī)會(huì)來探討各種各樣甚至另類的想法。當(dāng)涉及到教育和公眾的辯論時(shí)，一個(gè)不斷地被曝光----通常是年輕人----他們對(duì)這個(gè)世界有新的想法和不同的觀點(diǎn)。這就讓我感覺到在不久的將來新動(dòng)向和問題可能就暴露出來了。這是發(fā)展建筑學(xué)和都市設(shè)計(jì)的一個(gè)重要組成部分，因?yàn)樗粌H反映了現(xiàn)在我們要面對(duì)的問題，同時(shí)也反映了我們將來需要處理的問題。
【ABBS】：can you talk about your basic design attitude？ How do you describe your style？
能談?wù)勀慊镜脑O(shè)計(jì)態(tài)度嗎？您怎樣描述自己的風(fēng)格。
【Markus Appenzelle】：Design to me is not so much about a particular style。 I can admire classic and contemporary and everything in between。 To me it is less important what kind of style a building or product results in but what lead to that result。 I am very interested in the process。 In this process many factors play a role – clients，the place，collaborators，local traditions and society，craftsmanship available or the end users。 Ideally architectural design responds to all those factors in the best possible way and it is the quality of really good design that it often does this in subtle ways that combine traditions with the contemporary。 Ultimately this means that a building in London will necessarily have to look different than a building in Shanghai。 And a building in the French concession will have to look different than a building in PuDong。 Local traditions I think play too little a role in China today but they would be of great value in developing a distinctly Chinese contemporary architecture。 Compare it to Japan: In Japan contemporary architecture looks highly contemporary but at the same time it is deeply rooted in Japanese cultures and traditions。 I do not find that in China but given the – still enormous – building activity in China one would wish that something like that would develop。
設(shè)計(jì)對(duì)于我來說沒有一個(gè)特定的風(fēng)格。我欣賞古典和現(xiàn)代之間的所有設(shè)計(jì)。什么樣的建筑風(fēng)格或者產(chǎn)生了什么樣的結(jié)果對(duì)我來說都不是很重要，重要的是是什么導(dǎo)致了這樣的結(jié)果。我對(duì)這個(gè)完成的過程很感興趣。在這個(gè)過程中許多因素發(fā)揮了作用---客戶，地點(diǎn)，合作者，地方傳統(tǒng)元素和社會(huì)價(jià)值，有效的技術(shù)和最終用戶。我理想的建筑設(shè)計(jì)是以最好最完美的方式影響這些因素，最終用真正好的設(shè)計(jì)質(zhì)量以這樣微妙的方式把傳統(tǒng)和現(xiàn)代結(jié)合起來。
這會(huì)意味著最終結(jié)果：一個(gè)倫敦的建筑必然看起來和上海的建筑不同，一個(gè)法國境內(nèi)的建筑和浦東的比起來又不一樣�，F(xiàn)今一個(gè)地方的地方傳統(tǒng)和文化在中國起的作用越來越小，但是毫無疑問，他們的對(duì)中國現(xiàn)代建筑的發(fā)展是有極大價(jià)值的。和日本比起來：日本現(xiàn)代建筑看起來很現(xiàn)代，但是它同時(shí)也根深蒂固的扎進(jìn)了日本的文化和傳統(tǒng)中。我現(xiàn)在好像很少能在中國找到這樣的建筑，但是中國仍然有龐大的建筑活動(dòng)，我相信和我一樣很多人都希望有更多這樣的建筑能夠發(fā)展起來。
【ABBS】：what do you think are the most important qualities of being an architect？
您認(rèn)為建筑師最重要的品質(zhì)是什么？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I think it depends on the role one plays。Working on urban design projects， the most important skill is to be able to listen and then to find the best possible compromise between all aspects involved。 Masterplans developed against the opinions of key stakeholders，local population or the market might get approved but they will fail in the implementation phase since they are not embodied by the key groups in the process。 When designing buildings， I think the ability to sense the genius of a place and to translate that into architectural concepts and enrich them with one’s own beliefs is a very important skill。
我認(rèn)為這依賴于每個(gè)人扮演的角色。做城市規(guī)劃、城市設(shè)計(jì)的工作，最重要的技巧是能夠傾聽，然后找到在這個(gè)過程涉及到的所有方面中達(dá)到一個(gè)最好的平衡。當(dāng)總體規(guī)劃的發(fā)展和主要利益相關(guān)者的觀點(diǎn)有沖突的時(shí)候，即便可能被當(dāng)?shù)氐娜嘶蛘呤袌?chǎng)認(rèn)可，方案也很有可能會(huì)在實(shí)施執(zhí)行過程中失敗，因?yàn)檫@個(gè)過程中涉及到了關(guān)鍵群體不被體現(xiàn)，或者利益受到損害。做建筑設(shè)計(jì)時(shí)，我認(rèn)為要有相應(yīng)的能力，把他轉(zhuǎn)化到建筑概念中，并把其豐富到對(duì)方他們自己的堅(jiān)持和信仰中，是一個(gè)非常重要的技能。
【ABBS】：what attracts you to China？ For example，the market environment here？
您是怎樣來到中國的，喜歡中國的市場(chǎng)氛圍嗎？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I got to work in China by sheer accident。 10 years ago – I had just graduated from University – I was asked by a former professor of mine if I wanted to lead a masterplanning project in China。 Never having been here before and open for adventures，I agreed。 Through this project I started developing my interest in China – first out of curiosity for a culture that in many ways is fundamentally different than the European but slowly more and more systematically since I realized that being able to draw from several cultures give a whole lot more possibilities to answer pending questions。 Today working in China of course is interesting since it is the world’s biggest market for planning and architecture。 It is also interesting because of the sheer scale of the challenge where answers readily available do not apply anymore。 But to me the main driver is and remains the possibility to combine Chinese and Western ideas and experience – for myself and for the architectural and urban daily practice。
我到中國來工作非常偶然。10年前，我剛從大學(xué)畢業(yè)，我的前一位教授問我是否愿意在中國做一個(gè)總體規(guī)劃項(xiàng)目。雖然從沒來過這兒，也沒冒過險(xiǎn)，但我還是同意了。通過這個(gè)項(xiàng)目我開始對(duì)在中國工作感興趣了：----首先出于對(duì)文化的好奇，它在很多方面都和歐洲不同，但是慢慢地我更多的意識(shí)到，我能夠系統(tǒng)地從這些文化中提取到更多的可能，更多的方法來解決很多以前未處理過的問題�，F(xiàn)在我覺得在中國工作很有意思，因?yàn)樗侨蜃畲蟮囊?guī)劃和建筑市場(chǎng)，也因?yàn)橛腥绱艘?guī)模的挑戰(zhàn)，從而讓現(xiàn)有的解決方案都不能完全的應(yīng)用。但是對(duì)我而言，主要因素是仍然可能將中國和西方的理念和經(jīng)驗(yàn)結(jié)合起來，為我所用，為我想做的建筑和城市設(shè)計(jì)進(jìn)行實(shí)踐。
【ABBS】：is money your motive to work in Chinese market？ You have done many projects in China。 can you share your findings or experiences about working in China？
你來中國工作的原動(dòng)力是為了金錢嗎？您在中國做了這么多項(xiàng)目，關(guān)于在中國做業(yè)務(wù)有什么心得可以跟大家分享的？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I would lie if saying that I work in China only for philanthropic reasons。 Yes money plays a role but it is not the main driving force。 The key driver is the unprecedented scale and speed in which the transformation of China from a largely rural society into an urban takes place。 In the past this has led to astonishing new concepts and I think it has changed the way people look at cities and density。 But China at the moment is in a transition from the ‘gold-rush’ of the first 30 years where pretty much all markets were unsaturated into an economy which still grows at significant speed but where the mainstream markets get increasingly saturated。 While many think this is a big problem，I think this is a great opportunity to develop the concepts found in the last 30 years further – more spatial complexity，a three-dimensional city，a wider variety of typologies，flexibility in use of buildings，rediscovering craftsmanship and traditions，greener buildings and cities，more integrated urban environments and prefabrication are just a small selection of key words that will play a role in this context。
如果我說，我在中國工作是為了做慈善，那明顯不是真的。錢一定是一個(gè)因素，但不是主要的。關(guān)鍵因素是，中國從一個(gè)龐大的農(nóng)業(yè)社會(huì)向城市社會(huì)轉(zhuǎn)變過程中，體現(xiàn)出了前所未有的規(guī)模和速度。過去這是個(gè)非常異想天開的想法，而今天卻變成改變了人們解決城市密度的方法和現(xiàn)實(shí)。
但是，現(xiàn)在的中國目前仍然處于從“淘金”的前30年的一個(gè)過渡時(shí)期，幾乎所有市場(chǎng)在經(jīng)濟(jì)上都不飽和，經(jīng)濟(jì)仍以顯著的速度增長(zhǎng)，主流市場(chǎng)越來越多地滲透了進(jìn)來。很多人認(rèn)為這是個(gè)大問題，我認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)很好的機(jī)會(huì)，來進(jìn)一步理解過去開發(fā)的30年里發(fā)現(xiàn)的很多有意思的理念：----在更復(fù)雜的空間，更三維城市，用一個(gè)廣泛類型學(xué)的概念，靈活地使用在建筑上，重新發(fā)現(xiàn)新的工藝，結(jié)合老的傳統(tǒng)來創(chuàng)造真正綠色建筑和城市，城市綜合環(huán)境和預(yù)制只是作為在其中一小部分的關(guān)鍵詞，今后將在相關(guān)的方面發(fā)揮作用。
【ABBS】：What do you think the main differences of working in China？ Among the projects you’ve participated，which country’s working environment in terms of policies and regulations makes you feel the easiest / compatible to your style？
您覺得在中國做設(shè)計(jì)有什么不同？而在您所作過的項(xiàng)目中，哪個(gè)國家從政策法規(guī)到公民意識(shí)都讓你感到如魚得水？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I think there are two key differences of working in China with working in Europe。 First there is what I would want to call Chinese pragmatism。 Chinese are highly pragmatic when it comes to finding solutions。 While in Europe we still tend to stick to a relatively static set of beliefs and rules，in China they are fuzzier and in flux。 Often problems are solved ad hoc which not always leads to aesthetically appealing results，but to results that – at least temporarily – work。 But there is a specific Chinese side to this pragmatism which in a way counters the pragmatic。 It has to do with traditions，guanxi and a fair amount of pride and generousness。
我認(rèn)為在中國工作和在歐洲工作有兩點(diǎn)不同：首先，我想指出的是中國的實(shí)用主義，我姑且把我的感受這樣形容。在涉及到尋找一件事情的解決方案時(shí)，中國市場(chǎng)的風(fēng)格是高度務(wù)實(shí)。在歐洲，我們?nèi)匀粌A向于堅(jiān)持一個(gè)信念，規(guī)則也相對(duì)保守和固定。然而在中國他們對(duì)這個(gè)概念顯得更加模糊，不斷變化，他必須接受傳統(tǒng)、關(guān)系以及一部分人的權(quán)利等等因素的干擾。
【ABBS】：which cities in China， in your opinion， have made good city planning？How do you rank the 4 biggest cities in China (Beijing， Shanghai， Guangzhou and Shenzhen)？
請(qǐng)問您個(gè)人覺得中國目前哪些城市規(guī)劃做得不錯(cuò)？四大一線城市北上廣深城市規(guī)劃在您心目中排序如何？
【Markus Appenzelle】：It is hard to judge which city has better planning。 They come from different starting points and each one has its own particular challenges。 Car traffic for example is a big problem in Beijing right now but in Shanghai it is less of a problem。 In Shenzhen – a city without a long lasting history local identity is something that needs much more attention than in history laden Beijing。 And then there are the family of second tier cities – Chengdu， Chongqing， Hangzhou and all the other cities of considerable size that also start catching up。 Personally I am currently most impressed by what Shenzhen has achieved in 30 years。 It is the biggest new town on earth and still has managed to create a sense of place。 In addition the lack of a long history seems to be a good breeding ground for alternative ideas and concepts。What I still miss in the big four and most of the second tier cities is the appreciation for the old city quarters。 In recent years most of them have been replaced by quite uniform development that lacks the history that characterized these places before。 I hope that among local governments， developers and local residents the insight grows that an old quarter holds an important cultural value。
很難判定哪個(gè)城市的規(guī)劃做的更好。他們有不同的起點(diǎn)，而且每一個(gè)城市需要面對(duì)自己獨(dú)有的挑戰(zhàn)。例如現(xiàn)在北京特別大的一個(gè)問題是交通，但是在上海的首要問題就不是這個(gè)。深圳----這個(gè)并沒有很長(zhǎng)歷史沉淀的城市，比起北京的歷史問題來說，需要更多其他方面的關(guān)注。然后有一些二線城市---比如成都，重慶，杭州以及其他一些頗具規(guī)模的城市也開始崛起了。就我個(gè)人感覺而言，深圳在這30年獲得的成果令我印象最深刻。它是全球最大的新城市，卻仍然有辦法的建出一個(gè)很有特色的地方感出來。沒有悠久的歷史似乎更能夠激發(fā)新想法和觀念。不過我仍然還是很欣賞北上廣深四大城市以及這些漸漸崛起的二線城市的老城區(qū)。近年來，他們中的大部分城市開始走上均勻發(fā)展的道路，我希望，在地方政府、開發(fā)商和當(dāng)?shù)鼐用衲軌蛟谶@些舊城區(qū)，在這個(gè)古老的國度中，發(fā)現(xiàn)這些沉淀下來的文化價(jià)值的重要性。
【ABBS】：there is a Chinese saying: adapting to local conditions and centered from people。 From your point of view， what do you think of it？
咱們中國有句話叫做：因地制宜，以人為本。站在您的角度您認(rèn)為應(yīng)該是怎樣的？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I wish Chinese would take that more serious! Personally I think we should only design for people and a particular place。 It is one of the great achievements of mankind that it developed custom made solutions for places。 Historic buildings look different in Beijing than they do in Guangzhou because they respond to different conditions in the best possible way。 The wave of modernisation somehow has eliminated that sensitivity for the place。 Rediscovering it will be a key to more sustainable cities and to cities where people play a more important role again。
我希望中國能夠更嚴(yán)肅的看待這件事。就我個(gè)人而言，我應(yīng)該只為人和需的地方做設(shè)計(jì)。人類的偉大成就之一就是為每一個(gè)不同的地方開發(fā)和定制相應(yīng)的解決方案。在北京的古建筑和在廣州的古建筑看起來并不是一樣的，他們用最適合當(dāng)?shù)氐摹⒖尚械慕ㄔ旆椒▌?chuàng)造了不同的環(huán)境�，F(xiàn)代化的浪潮在某種程度上已經(jīng)多多少少消除了這些地方的靈氣。怎樣重新發(fā)現(xiàn)它成為可持續(xù)城市的關(guān)鍵，人們?cè)僖淮卧诔鞘兄邪缪萘烁匾慕巧?br />
【ABBS】：developing creative industries in city and regions has become a very popular phenomenon for cities all over the world。 More and more cities use large-scale city event to stimulate urban development。 This is one of your research topics。 Can you elaborate some of your ideas and suggestions?
在遍布世界各地的城市中，從城市和區(qū)域?qū)用娲龠M(jìn)創(chuàng)意產(chǎn)業(yè)的發(fā)展已經(jīng)成為非常時(shí)髦的現(xiàn)象。利用各種大型活動(dòng)促進(jìn)城市發(fā)展的項(xiàng)目越來越多，這個(gè)問題曾經(jīng)是您的研究課題之一，您有些什么好的觀點(diǎn)和建議嗎？
【Markus Appenzelle】：Every city wants to become a creative city but only few actually do。 Like with many concepts simple replication usually is less successful than inventing new ideas。 Therefore city governments should develop more phantasy in defining their own and therefore unique agenda。 Large scale events can be a tool to boost that agenda。 I have been involved in a number of event related planning projects。 Take the Olympic Legacy masterplan for London – a plan for the re-use of the Olympic Park after the end of the Olympic Games this year: London had the plan to revitalize the east-end， a fairly dilapidated piece of the city。 It uses the Olympics to channel significant investment to that area and will use the Olympic infrastructure and the developments around it to create a new future for what currently is Europe’s biggest slum。 Other cities use recurring events such a cultural happenings to position themselves as cultural city of a type。 So far neither Beijing nor Shanghai， Guangzhou or Shenzhen have fully used the potential the large scale events of recent years have provided with many of the venues having become ‘white elephants’ – structures that have no real use – the Olympic stadium in Beijing is a good example for that。
事實(shí)上創(chuàng)意產(chǎn)業(yè)發(fā)展的城市僅是少數(shù)，每個(gè)城市都想成為一個(gè)創(chuàng)新城市。像許多概念通過簡(jiǎn)單復(fù)制，和發(fā)明一個(gè)新觀念比起來，成功幾率都不會(huì)大。因此市政府更有的想象力的來定位自己，需要有更獨(dú)特的議程。大規(guī)模的項(xiàng)目和活動(dòng)能夠成為宣揚(yáng)這種議程的工具。我前不久參與了一系列相關(guān)計(jì)劃的項(xiàng)目：為倫敦奧運(yùn)項(xiàng)目做的規(guī)劃---我們計(jì)劃在今年奧運(yùn)會(huì)結(jié)束后重新利用奧利匹克公園：倫敦政府計(jì)劃復(fù)新倫敦東區(qū)，城市相當(dāng)荒廢的一塊地方，。奧運(yùn)的時(shí)候政府在那個(gè)區(qū)域做了重大的投資，將利用奧運(yùn)會(huì)基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施和它周圍的發(fā)展為這個(gè)目前歐洲最大的貧民窟創(chuàng)建一個(gè)新的未來。其他城市目前還是會(huì)重復(fù)的使用某個(gè)事件，例如用一個(gè)文化事件來把自己作為文化城市類型來定位。到目前為止，不論是北京或是上海，廣州或是深圳都為了近幾年計(jì)劃中的大規(guī)模事件提供了很多區(qū)域來修建場(chǎng)館，而這些地方都成了所謂的“白象”----大而無用。有沒有真正使用到結(jié)構(gòu)----北京的奧林匹克體育館就是很好的例子。
【ABBS】： cities are evolving constantly。 Demolishing some old architectures is inevitable。 But how should we balance the demolishment and preservation? How should we choose between this two?
城市不斷發(fā)展，拆除一些舊有建筑在所難免。但在拆除與保留間應(yīng)該如何取舍？如何平衡？
【Markus Appenzelle】：Cities should be about abandoning the old and creating new and as a matter of fact they always have been。 But at the same time one should not light heartedly destroy the old。 Successful planning is always about valuing the existing condition and developing it further。 Therefore I think in many places rather than replacing entire buildings one could start thinking about upgrading and densifying existing structures。 Only where this proves not possible one should consider replacement。 In Shenzhen my former employer KCAP won a competition on the basis of keeping as many buildings as possible rather than destroying them。 You can argue that none of the buildings has significant architectural value but social networks， business activity， places of memory – they all are connected to the built environment and removing all of it means erasing all these networks and starting from scratch。
城市發(fā)展本應(yīng)該推陳出新，事實(shí)上他們也這樣做了。但是這樣做的意思并不是把所有舊建筑全部摧毀了。成功的規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)是能夠評(píng)估這些建筑的現(xiàn)存價(jià)值和未來的發(fā)展。因此我認(rèn)為，現(xiàn)在很多地方需要做的不是摧毀舊的替換上一個(gè)新的建筑，而是可以開始考慮現(xiàn)有結(jié)構(gòu)的升級(jí)和精細(xì)化，做一些壓縮和調(diào)整。只有在科學(xué)的評(píng)估和證明后再去說重建的事。在深圳，我的前雇主KCAP就總是盡可能的保護(hù)建筑而不是摧毀建筑，他在這樣的博弈中獲勝了。你可以說沒有任何建筑具有顯著的建筑價(jià)值，但社交網(wǎng)絡(luò)，商業(yè)活動(dòng)，一些充滿紀(jì)念和回憶的地方，----他們都和這個(gè)建造環(huán)境有關(guān)，摧毀和刪除了所有就意味著格式化了這個(gè)網(wǎng)，一切將需要從頭開始。
【ABBS】： how to design a modern city while preserving the original sense of history? How did the Netherlands do it?
做規(guī)劃怎樣在發(fā)展城市現(xiàn)代化的同時(shí)還能保留原本的歷史感？荷蘭是怎么做的？
【Markus Appenzelle】：The problem in China today is the speed with which cities are growing。 While in the Western world – and the Netherlands are no exception to that - density increased slowly in China it jumps form low to hyper dense in a small number of years。 Unlike Europe， China did not have the time to develop local typologies that accommodated the higher densities。 The result in China often is an architecture that could be everywhere and does not bear any local Chinese characteristics。 It is one of the big challenges for architects to come up with a Chinese architectural language that responds to those conditions。 Take the Netherlands for example: it is a country with the highest population density in Europe。 In the first half of the 20th century and especially from the 1990’s on， cities have encouraged new concepts and architects were given the opportunity to realize those while at the same time protecting building heritage。 Today contemporary buildings and historic street scenes coexist side by side and lead to a visually quite rich urban environment。
問題在于今天中國城市發(fā)展的增長(zhǎng)速度。然而在西方國家----荷蘭也不例外----密度增長(zhǎng)逐漸緩慢，在中國很短的時(shí)間階段里它以倍增的形式從低到高。不像歐洲，中國沒有時(shí)間來發(fā)展當(dāng)?shù)氐念愋蛠磉m應(yīng)更高的密度。這就導(dǎo)致中國到處都是建筑師，卻很少有人能夠熟練的運(yùn)用當(dāng)?shù)氐闹袊幕厣�。是否能否提出中國特色的建筑語言來反映這些情況，對(duì)廣大建筑師來說將是很大的挑戰(zhàn)。以荷蘭為例：它是歐洲國家中人口密度最高的。在20世紀(jì)前期，特別是從1990年開始，市政府鼓勵(lì)提出新概念，建筑師也有機(jī)會(huì)去認(rèn)識(shí)到這些情況，同時(shí)也能注意保護(hù)建筑遺產(chǎn)。而今當(dāng)代建筑和歷史街道能并排共存，有了現(xiàn)在這樣視覺和文化相當(dāng)豐富的城市環(huán)境。
【ABBS】：does the traditionality of dutch architecture have to do with the national history and culture? Can you specify some more?
荷蘭建筑的傳統(tǒng)性與荷蘭的歷史和文化因素有關(guān)嗎？具體是怎樣的？
【Markus Appenzelle】：Dutch architecture has a lot to do with history and culture。 Since large parts of the country due to the very low location just above or even below sea level continuously have to be protected against flooding land is scarce and therefore expensive。 This can be seen in the tradition of urban planning that was necessary from early on since efficient land use needs planning。 Technical requirements over the course of centuries led to a culture of density in which architects， developers and construction firms jointly developed typologies that use ground very efficiently without missing qualities like privacy or one’s own outdoor space。 Since founding was quite difficult and expensive in the sandy soil buildings have large openings which make the walls lighter。 That is one reason why Dutch houses have such large windows。 But then there is the cultural dimension of architecture: The Netherlands have been a very Calvinist country。 This resounds in a tamed classic style that characterizes many of the older buildings and has repercussions even on today’s aesthetic preferences。
荷蘭的建筑有很豐富的歷史文化色彩。因?yàn)閲掖蟛糠值貐^(qū)都處于很低的位置，有些僅略高于海平面，有些甚至低于海平面，免受水浸的土地非常稀少，所以價(jià)格昂貴。可以看出這種傳統(tǒng)的城市規(guī)劃的工作，前期就對(duì)有效的土地做好規(guī)劃是很有必要的。幾個(gè)世紀(jì)以來，荷蘭這個(gè)國家的地理特點(diǎn)，影響著建筑的發(fā)展，幾個(gè)世紀(jì)以來，建筑師、設(shè)計(jì)師、施工人員的不斷融合，形成他們的建筑特色和文化， 這樣對(duì)土地的使用即有效又不破壞私密性，即每個(gè)人都能擁有自己的戶外空間。因?yàn)榻o沙土建筑打地基非常困難和昂貴，所以這些建筑有超大的墻洞這樣使得墻輕一些。這就是為什么荷蘭的建筑為什么有很多大窗戶的原因，還有建筑的文化因素：荷蘭是個(gè)非常加爾文主義的國家，這種的經(jīng)典風(fēng)格特點(diǎn)反映在很多老建筑上，甚至對(duì)今天的審美偏好都有影響。
【ABBS】：Scharnhorst Kaserne project in Germany is a regeneration project。 How did you do it? What do you think are the characters of urban planning in Germany。 What are the advantages and disadvantages?
德國的Scharnhorst Kaserne項(xiàng)目就是一個(gè)改造項(xiàng)目，您具體是怎么做的呢？德國的城市規(guī)劃在您看來特點(diǎn)是怎樣的？?jī)?yōu)劣是哪些？
【Markus Appenzelle】：Together with some colleagues of my former employer KCAP and landscape architects Studio UC we took part in a workshop competition。 Within less than a week we developed the whole concept in interaction with local politicians and the public。 The site used to be an army camp for most parts of the 20th century and therefore inaccessible for the population of Osnabrück – the city where it is located。 Rather than rolling out a generic masterplan we proposed to not start with buildings but with public space。 Public space needs public access and places that attract people。 Therefore for the first phase of the development we proposed to use some of the army camp facilities as features for new open spaces that attract people。 A former car wash for tanks becomes a beer garden， the exercising square becomes a place where farmer’s markets and fairs can take place， the former officer’s homes become units for start-up units for companies。 From this starting point the area gradually develops into an ‘ordinary’ and fully integrated piece of city over the course of a couple of decades (Yes – development is slow in Germany)。
In general Germany does not have such a strong planning tradition than the Netherlands and it largely still is in the hands of the local administrations which all have their own often very professional planning department。 This has advantages and disadvantages。 It is positive that local authorities have a high degree of control over what can and cannot happen within their territory but at the same time the rather closed system is not very innovative when it comes to testing new concepts of city making。
我前雇主KCAP的一些同事和景觀建筑師工作室在加州大學(xué)一起參加過一個(gè)討論。在不到一周的時(shí)間里，我們用整個(gè)概念和當(dāng)?shù)卣秃凸娀?dòng)。這個(gè)地區(qū)曾是20世紀(jì)大部分軍隊(duì)的營(yíng)地，因此坐落于這的奧斯納布呂克的人難以接近。寧愿延伸規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)，我們提出從公共空間開始而不是從建筑開始。公共空間需要公共媒體和地點(diǎn)來吸引群眾。因此第一階段為新開放空間的空間中，我們提出了使用一些軍營(yíng)設(shè)施作為特點(diǎn)吸引群眾。一個(gè)以前洗車的蓄水池成了露天啤酒店，運(yùn)動(dòng)廣場(chǎng)變成了農(nóng)民市場(chǎng)和集市，前軍官的房間變成了公司創(chuàng)業(yè)單位的辦公室。從這個(gè)起點(diǎn)開始這個(gè)地區(qū)逐漸趨于“平凡”，在過去的幾十年完全成為了城市的一部分（是的----德國發(fā)展的緩慢）。
總之和荷蘭相比，德國沒有這樣一個(gè)強(qiáng)大的規(guī)劃傳統(tǒng)，它很大程度上仍掌握在地方政府的手里，通常都有自己的非常專業(yè)的規(guī)劃部門。這有利也有弊。有利的是當(dāng)?shù)卣泻芨叩牡匚唬芸刂圃谒麄兊念I(lǐng)域內(nèi)什么能發(fā)生，什么不能發(fā)生。但同時(shí)，尤其是封閉的系統(tǒng)在測(cè)試城市發(fā)展的新概念時(shí)不是很有創(chuàng)新。
【ABBS】：can China learn some lessons from European city and regional planning practices?
中國能不能從歐洲的城市和區(qū)域規(guī)劃實(shí)踐中學(xué)到什么？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I would say that both can learn from each other and this is also how I like to work。 The ideal team cultivates an exchange and a competition of ideas and the better concepts succeed no matter which cultural context they originate in。 Apart from the Chinese scale， I think that Europe can learn from China what real density can mean and how this also can create liveable environments。 Europe had centuries of time to develop from a pre-industrial agrarian society into a post-industrial one。 In this process Europeans learned a lot of things and made many mistakes that Chinese could avoid。 Take transport for example: European cities painfully had to learn that the car is not the solution to urban transport but rather the problem。 Europeans have acted and developed alternative transport system – from trams to the rediscovery of bicycles。 This is why most European cities do not know the traffic collapse some of the Chinese cities are experiencing every day。 But I think also the European valuation for decent quality of buildings， streets， pubic space – actually the entire city is something is something that seems to play an increasingly important role in China。
這是肯定的，這也是我喜歡做的。我理想的團(tuán)隊(duì)是能夠培養(yǎng)出交流和競(jìng)爭(zhēng)的思想，成功的概念肯定不會(huì)因?yàn)樗麄兤鹪从诤畏N文化語境。且不說中國規(guī)模，中國學(xué)習(xí)歐洲意味著什么：怎樣創(chuàng)建適宜居住的環(huán)境。歐洲用整整幾個(gè)世紀(jì)的時(shí)間，從一個(gè)前工業(yè)化農(nóng)業(yè)社會(huì)發(fā)展到后工業(yè)城市社會(huì)。在這個(gè)過程中走了很多彎路，犯了很多中國現(xiàn)在可以引以為戒從而可以避免的錯(cuò)誤。拿運(yùn)輸為例：歐洲城市被迫學(xué)習(xí)到了汽車并不能解決城市交通，而是引發(fā)很多問題。歐洲人開始行動(dòng)并且發(fā)展了可供選擇的交通系統(tǒng)----從有軌電車到重新發(fā)現(xiàn)自行車。這就是為什么歐洲人不知道一些中國城市每天都在經(jīng)歷的交通擁堵問題。但是我也認(rèn)為，歐洲對(duì)良好質(zhì)量的評(píng)估體系：包括建筑物、街道、公共空間——實(shí)際上影響整個(gè)城市東西是什么？這個(gè)東西在中國扮演著越來越重要的角色。
【ABBS】：from your previous project we can see that you have special knowledge of developing future visions for middle-sized European cities? Can you elaborate for us? Are they also useful experiences for urban China?
從您之前的項(xiàng)目來看，您對(duì)中等大小的歐洲城市的未來發(fā)展非常有心得。可以分享一下嗎？對(duì)于中國來說，有什么借鑒作用？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I think this needs a little explanation: Next to professional practice I regularly teach design studios。 One of the studios I taught together with Petar Zaklanovic， a good friend and long-time colleague looked at mid-size European with between 200 and 700 thousand inhabitants。 In the last decade of the 20th and the first decade of the 21st century most of these cities undertook enormous efforts to place themselves on the global map of destinations。 The Spanish city of Bilbao for example invested in a branch of New York’s Guggenheim Museum， the city of Lille in France rebranded itself as a major capital and a commerce and business destination – not by size but by accessibility which was greatly increased by a new high-speed train link between London and Paris with Lille right in the middle。 With these projects ageing most of these cities would need a new impulse。 But times have changed。 Where 20 years ago the public budgets were rather well funded， now these cities simply cannot afford another such investment。 The other aspect of these grand projects is that they copied genuinely metropolitan concepts in the more provincial mid-size cities。 This is one of the reasons why many of these projects appear quite alien in the urban fabric。 Our design studio investigated the possibility of using already existing but underutilized pieces of city to inject new life and at the same time provide solutions that appear much more contextual and rooted in the particular city。
I think the approach of reusing pieces of city as they are but with sensible modifications is something that would be a desirable strategy for many Chinese city at the brink of completely eliminating their own historic heritage。 But at the same time the European condition is not really comparable to China since the dynamics in urbanization barely leave any parts of the cities underutilized for a longer period of time。
我想這需要一些解釋：我會(huì)定期的教些專業(yè)實(shí)踐給設(shè)計(jì)工作室。我和一個(gè)好朋友，老同事Petar Zaklanovic一起搞的一個(gè)工作室，研究了200到700居民歐洲中型大小的城市。在20世紀(jì)后十年和21世紀(jì)前10年，大多數(shù)的這些城市做了巨大的努力，想把自己融入全球?yàn)槟康�。例如西班牙的城市畢爾巴鄂投資了紐約古根海姆博物館的一個(gè)分支機(jī)構(gòu)，法國的城市里爾把自己作為一個(gè)主要的省會(huì)和以商務(wù)和業(yè)務(wù)為目標(biāo)來重塑，不是按大小而是按可達(dá)性，里爾在中間大大的增加了倫敦和巴黎的高速火車鏈。隨著這些項(xiàng)目的漸漸老去，城市需要一個(gè)新的刺激。但是時(shí)代已經(jīng)變了。20 年前公共資金很容易湊集到，而現(xiàn)在這些城市不再容易提供如此大的投資了。另外一些中等省會(huì)城市一絲不變?cè)颈镜某u了大都市的理念，這就是為什么在城市構(gòu)造中出現(xiàn)了很多的畸形項(xiàng)目。我們的設(shè)計(jì)工作室調(diào)查建筑使用已經(jīng)存在的可能性，但卻沒為未充分使用的城市板塊注入新的生命，同時(shí)提供解決在個(gè)別城市中出現(xiàn)的更多的環(huán)境和根源問題的方案。
其實(shí)我認(rèn)為重組城市的方法是要明智的修改一些東西，就是那些對(duì)許多中國城市都滿意都適用的策略，這已經(jīng)到了瀕臨完全消滅他們自己歷史古跡的邊緣。不過歐洲情況也不是完全就比中國好，因?yàn)樵诤芏喑鞘性谙喈?dāng)長(zhǎng)的時(shí)間里沒有體現(xiàn)出任何動(dòng)力了。
【ABBS】： what do you think is the way to guide developers， government and investors in order to realize a sustainable way of designing and planning that suits Chinese conditions? What are the European experiences?
您覺得，如何引導(dǎo)開發(fā)商-政府-投資商共同實(shí)現(xiàn)適合中國市場(chǎng)的可持續(xù)設(shè)計(jì)？而在歐洲的大環(huán)境下又是怎么做的？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I think the biggest obstacle in realizing more sustainable solutions in China is the extreme short term thinking of most Chinese developers and investors but also of politicians。 More sustainable development comes either at higher cost， lower speed or requires changes particularly in the legal planning frameworks。 All of this extends ‘earning back’ periods or profit margins – economically as well as politically。 That is hard to change and most likely will only change when markets become more mature and saturated so that sustainability becomes more of a selling point。 But there is also something that can be changed quickly。 By no means it is such that Chinese developers always use the most economic solutions。 Often high tech is used that comes at high prices where low tech solutions would deliver better results， require less maintenance and even create more comfort。 Take air-conditioning: In Shanghai every building is equipped with airco units but barely any of them has exterior sunshade – a low tech solution that can significantly reduce the energy consumption for cooling。
In Europe we have reached a high level for the sustainability performance of buildings。 But that does not mean that one cannot do more。 This happens continuously and technical requirements increase year on year。 China actually has an advanced legal framework for sustainable development – alone only little is enforced on the ground in the cities。 I therefore would plead for more enforcement but also for more simple but smart solutions with the hope that Chinese developers become more receptive。
我認(rèn)為現(xiàn)實(shí)中，中國可持續(xù)方案的最大障礙是中國開發(fā)商和投資者還有政治家都只見眼前利益。所謂的可持續(xù)發(fā)展，要么是花費(fèi)更高的成本，降低速度，或者是改變需要尤其是在法律規(guī)劃的框架。所有在“賺回”周期的投資回報(bào)率----經(jīng)濟(jì)上和政治上。這很難改變，當(dāng)市場(chǎng)變得更加成熟與飽和，這樣可持續(xù)性更成為一個(gè)賣點(diǎn)時(shí)，大概只有改變。但是也有些能改變得很快的事：中國開發(fā)商決不是用最經(jīng)濟(jì)的解決方案。卻傾向經(jīng)常選擇高科技，高價(jià)格，低技術(shù)解決方案，認(rèn)為這會(huì)帶來更好的結(jié)果，不需要太多的改造就能創(chuàng)造更多的舒適。舉個(gè)例子說空調(diào)設(shè)備：在上海每個(gè)建筑都裝有空調(diào)系統(tǒng)，但是幾乎他們外部都有遮陽板----一個(gè)低技術(shù)解決方案極大的減少了制冷的能源消耗。
在歐洲，在建筑的可持續(xù)性上我們已經(jīng)達(dá)到了一個(gè)高度。但那不是說不可以更高。這種情況的持續(xù)發(fā)生和技術(shù)需求同比增長(zhǎng)。事實(shí)上中國有非常先進(jìn)的可持續(xù)發(fā)展的法律框架----對(duì)一些城市的土地只有一些明確的規(guī)定。因此，我希望能夠請(qǐng)求更多的執(zhí)行，但也是更簡(jiǎn)單和聰明的解決方案，希望能中國開發(fā)商能容易接受。
【ABBS】： in an age of frequent natural disasters， how can urban planning take the contingent events into consideration in order to reduce the damages from these catastrophes?
自然災(zāi)害頻發(fā)的今天，城市規(guī)劃中考慮到考慮到各種突發(fā)事件，做到減災(zāi)，容災(zāi)？
【Markus Appenzelle】：With more and more people gathering in densely populated places， disasters have increasingly become bigger threats and the climate change with more extreme weather conditions increases this even further。 Therefore planning for disaster today is more important than ever before – to save people’s lives but also to protect assets (in that order)。 In sensitive areas urban planning considers potential disasters and simulates potential consequences。 Luckily we today have advanced simulation technology as well as the technical means to cope with disasters。 We can build earth quake proof， we can protect ourselves against floods and we can build structures that survive hurricanes。 If these technologies are translated into planning norms and technical regulations and their implementation is controlled regularly then we can significantly reduce the toll a disaster can take。 But ultimately live remains risky and we cannot predict any event – so let’s master those we can master first。
隨著越來越多的人聚集到人口稠密的地方，災(zāi)害越來越多，變成了更大的威脅，并且隨著極端天氣條件進(jìn)一步的增加氣候會(huì)繼續(xù)改變。因此現(xiàn)今考慮災(zāi)害方面比起以前更為重要---既要救人們的命，也要保住人們的財(cái)產(chǎn)（按這個(gè)秩序）。在城市規(guī)劃中的敏感區(qū)域要考慮潛在的災(zāi)害，模擬潛在的后果。幸好我們現(xiàn)在有先進(jìn)的仿真技術(shù)和技術(shù)手段來應(yīng)對(duì)災(zāi)害。我們可以建立耐震的建筑，可以保護(hù)自己免受洪災(zāi)，也可以造能在颶風(fēng)中幸存下來的建筑。如果這些技術(shù)能轉(zhuǎn)化為規(guī)劃標(biāo)準(zhǔn)和技術(shù)規(guī)范，那他們的執(zhí)行力會(huì)定期的受到控制，然后我們可以顯著減少災(zāi)難帶來的人員傷亡。但是最后生活任然存在風(fēng)險(xiǎn)，我們不可能預(yù)測(cè)任何的災(zāi)害---所以首先讓我們掌握那些我們可以掌握。
【ABBS】： how can a designer balance human-scale and urban complexity?
怎樣才能做到人性化的尺度與城市的復(fù)雜性相互平衡？
【Markus Appenzelle】：I am not sure that there is a need to balance the two。 In my experience the human scale often is the most complex one since it deals with the full complexity of all individuals there are – with their behaviour and their way of communicating。 Only when we start to abandon the individual and only start addressing a collective of whatever kind – in other words when we start abstracting – then complexity also disappears。 The more abstract a groups gets， the more simple solutions and answers can become。 Of course one cannot always for 100% design for a single individual but one can also be more concrete and complex than many developments in the urban realm try to make us believe。 Ultimately people like complexity and that is the reason why people love historic places: they have those layers of use and history – they have what I tend to call ‘stain’ that complexity is。
我不能確定是否需要保持這兩者的平衡。在我的經(jīng)驗(yàn)中性化的尺度經(jīng)常是最負(fù)責(zé)的一個(gè)，因?yàn)樗幚硭型暾膫�(gè)體存在的的復(fù)雜性----他們的行為和他們的溝通方式。只有當(dāng)我們放棄個(gè)體，開始回歸無論什么樣的集體時(shí)----換言之當(dāng)我們開始幻想時(shí)---然后復(fù)雜性消失了。得到的越抽象，就越能得到簡(jiǎn)單的解決方案和答案。當(dāng)然人們不可能總是為單個(gè)的人創(chuàng)造100%的設(shè)計(jì)，但是卻比起許多城市試著讓我們相信的發(fā)展也能更具體，更復(fù)雜�；旧先藗兿矚g復(fù)雜，那也是為什么人們喜愛有歷史意義的地方的原因：他們有那些使用圖層和歷史----傾向稱之為“有瑕疵”的這種復(fù)雜性。
【ABBS】： how to create an environmental responsible architectural culture through designing? How do you address this in your design works?
怎樣通過設(shè)計(jì)來創(chuàng)造具有環(huán)境責(zé)任感的建筑文化？在你的作品中您是怎樣實(shí)現(xiàn)可持續(xù)的。有什么可以分享的？
【Markus Appenzelle】：Designing environmentally responsible architecture should not be an extra but should be at the very heart of any design。 We simply cannot afford not to be responsible。 We owe our children and grandchildren a world they can live in and any piece of architecture that often stays for at least 50 – 100 years is a small puzzle piece in the legacy we will leave after。 But on the other hand we need to be realistic – we cannot achieve everything immediately。 Therefore I see a design process also very much as a process of educating。 Educating a client but also educating myself by learning about new more responsible solutions。 I see every project also as such an education process and as part of a continuous learning curve。 That sometimes things go wrong is part of that undertaking。
設(shè)計(jì)有環(huán)境責(zé)任感的建筑應(yīng)該是所有設(shè)計(jì)的中心思想。我們必須負(fù)責(zé)。我們欠子孫一個(gè)未來能讓他們居住的世界，任何一塊能保持至少50 - 100年的架構(gòu)，都是我們離開后遺產(chǎn)中的一個(gè)小拼圖。但是另一方面需要面對(duì)現(xiàn)實(shí)----我們不能立即實(shí)現(xiàn)這一切。因此我認(rèn)為一個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)過程也可以當(dāng)做是一個(gè)教育過程。通過學(xué)習(xí)更多有責(zé)任感的解決方案來教育客戶，并且教育我自己。我了解每一個(gè)工程也有這樣的教育過程，并把它作為持續(xù)學(xué)習(xí)過程的一部分。有時(shí)事情出錯(cuò)我們應(yīng)該承擔(dān)的一部分。
【ABBS】： the world is becoming increasingly similar。 What is the function of your design works in regard to this? 世界正在變得越來越相似，你的作品將起到什么作用?
【Markus Appenzelle】：Is it really becoming more similar? I am not sure。 On a superficial level it has become more even and one can enjoy the same luxuries in Paris or in Guangzhou。 But on the other hand it has also become much more complex and divers。 While in the past culture， networks， business activities and families were defined along territorial borders， they today define themselves increasingly along lines of mutual interest， friendship or expertise。 To me this delivers an incredibly broad spectrum – a spectrum more delirious than ever before。 Therefore I can’t support the accusation that the world becomes more similar and the same applies to design。 For the first time in architectural history there is no such thing as one particular leading style anymore。 Anything is possible and (almost) anything gets built and finds a more or less happy investor and end user。 This is something we cannot change – therefore I think enabling people to be able to distinguish good from bad design can provide a solution。 Ideally our designs try to achieve that by being so attractive that people like using them and develop an understanding of the qualities the designers wanted to achieve。
真的越來越相似嗎？我不確定。在表面上，它變的更加相似，人們甚至可以在巴黎或者廣州享受同樣的奢侈品。但是從另一方面講，它也變得更加復(fù)雜和不同。然而在過去的文化、網(wǎng)絡(luò)、商業(yè)活動(dòng)和家庭中都定義在領(lǐng)土邊界，今天他們?cè)絹碓蕉嗟挠霉餐�、友好的關(guān)系或?qū)I(yè)知識(shí)來定位自己。對(duì)我來說這提供了一個(gè)難以置信的范圍----一個(gè)比以前更精神錯(cuò)亂的范圍。因此對(duì)于說世界變得越來越相似并同樣的應(yīng)用于設(shè)計(jì)中的這種指控，我不能認(rèn)同。首先在建筑史上不存在一個(gè)特定的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)風(fēng)格。一切皆有可能，（幾乎）任何一個(gè)建筑都能或多或少的有至少一個(gè)樂意投資者和不同的最終使用者。這是我們不能改變的事情----因此我想設(shè)計(jì)可以提供人們能夠區(qū)分好與壞的一個(gè)解決方案。理想情況下，我們的設(shè)計(jì)是能夠?qū)ζ渌娜藗儺a(chǎn)生吸引力，甚至讓人們?cè)敢獠⑾矚g使用他們，并且是設(shè)計(jì)師發(fā)自內(nèi)心的想實(shí)現(xiàn)自己對(duì)品質(zhì)的理解。
【ABBS】： so far， what projects you’ve done make you feel the most special?
從您目前設(shè)計(jì)和創(chuàng)作的項(xiàng)目來看，您覺得哪些項(xiàng)目是比較特別，有與眾不同的效果？
【Markus Appenzelle】：To be honest – it is always the one we just designed。 You put so much effort into designing a building or a masterplan that it almost becomes the physical extension to your brain。 But looking back I think the Legacy Masterplan for the Queen Elisabeth Olympic Park in London was the most special one – because it took such a long time and because it is the first plan to define a post-Olympic future for an Olympic Park that was developed long before the Games actually took place。
說實(shí)話----他總是我們剛設(shè)計(jì)出來的那個(gè)。你在設(shè)計(jì)一個(gè)建筑或規(guī)劃時(shí)投放了很多精力進(jìn)去，它幾乎裝滿了你整個(gè)大腦。而說到以前的回顧，倫敦伊麗莎白女皇奧林匹克公園的遺跡規(guī)劃我認(rèn)為是最特別的一個(gè)----因?yàn)樗撕荛L(zhǎng)的時(shí)間，也因?yàn)樗堑谝粋�(gè)為奧利匹克公園來定義奧運(yùn)會(huì)完成后的未來，事實(shí)上奧利匹克公園早在奧運(yùn)會(huì)發(fā)展時(shí)就發(fā)展了。
【ABBS】： what do you think the influences of those internationally renown great archiects on the professional field? Who do you admire the most?
在行業(yè)內(nèi)，您怎樣看待建筑大師的影響？您會(huì)崇尚哪一位建筑大師？
【Markus Appenzelle】：It almost has become a disease。 Whenever one of the ‘starchitects’ designs a building， within no time you can find copies or rip-offs all over the place – starting from architecture schools but not excluding ‘starchitects’ themselves that copy。 The history of architecture is a history of copying and there is nothing wrong about looking what others do to learn from it。 But it seems to me that in the past – with the reduced technological capabilities – copying was a much more conscious act。 I wish that we come back to that form of copying – copying that tries to understand the concepts behind the design result rather than just replicating a surface。 Consequently I admire those people most who are interested in what is behind the scenes and that invest in understanding concepts。 If I would have to state names， I think Rem Koolhaas (unsurprisingly) but also Adolf Loos and a great urbanist – Sir Patrick Abercrombie would spring to my mind。
這幾乎成為了一種疾病。無論哪個(gè)“明星建筑師”或者“設(shè)計(jì)大師”設(shè)計(jì)了一個(gè)作品，在短時(shí)間內(nèi)你在能夠所有地方又找不到抄襲或者偷竊的痕跡----從建筑學(xué)校開始，但是并不排除“明星建筑師”他們自己抄襲自己。建筑歷史是一個(gè)抄襲的歷史，從其他人那學(xué)習(xí)一些東西沒有錯(cuò)。但是對(duì)我來時(shí)那是在過去----隨著技術(shù)技能的減少----抄襲變成一個(gè)很自覺的行為了。我希望我們能回到抄襲產(chǎn)生前----，抄襲和模仿是為了試圖理解背后的概念設(shè)計(jì)的結(jié)果，為什么要這樣設(shè)計(jì)，而不是復(fù)制一個(gè)表面。因此我欽佩那些把時(shí)間和金錢投資在研究這些為什么上面的人。如果我不得不說那些人的名字，勿庸置疑
我認(rèn)為會(huì)是Rem Koolhaas、Adolf Loos和這位偉大的城市規(guī)劃專家---Patrick Abercrombie先生，他們的名字會(huì)涌現(xiàn)在我腦海里。
【ABBS】： recent years in China， there are big opportunities of construction， but there are actually seldom great architects emerged in this period in China? What do you think of this?
對(duì)于近年中國出現(xiàn)的大建設(shè)機(jī)遇而言世界級(jí)建筑大師人物相對(duì)較少，您個(gè)人怎么看待這一問題？
【Markus Appenzelle】：There are an increasing number of well-respected Chinese architects – also on the international stage。 But in relation to the total quantum of built volume their oeuvre is negligible and therefore does not accumulate to a critical mass of quality。 The market condition where almost everything needs to be realized instantly is another factor that reduces the likelihood for really great architecture。 Developing and improving concepts simply needs time – something most architects in China do not get。 I don’t know if the fact that there a Chinese architectural superstar has not risen so far has to do with the particular condition we find in China at the moment or if it has to do with a change in the architecture scene itself。 In recent years no star has risen to the heights of the likes of Mies van der Rohe， Le Corbusier or Rem Koolhaas。 Maybe the current generation of architects is less interested in stardom and more focussed on delivering designs。 Currently we do have a very big group of very good architects that consistently deliver exceptional quality and ultimately that delivers more critical mass and therefore is better for the quality of our cities than having a few stars that only can deliver the ‘diamonds in the crown’。
中國受尊敬的建筑師越來愈多了----同樣在國際舞臺(tái)上也有。但是聯(lián)想到他們作品的總體數(shù)量總是顯得很少，所以不能以數(shù)量作為標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。在市場(chǎng)條件下，需要即時(shí)意識(shí)到另一個(gè)因素，那就是真正偉大的建筑可能在減少。創(chuàng)造科學(xué)的開發(fā)和改進(jìn)這樣的概念需要時(shí)間----中國大多數(shù)的建筑師都沒了解到這個(gè)。我不清楚目前是否有中國的建筑大師來處理這個(gè)特殊情況，或者任其發(fā)展。最近幾年沒有著名建筑師能上升到像Mies van der Rohe， Le Corbusier or或者Rem Koolhaas這樣的高度�？赡墚�(dāng)代的建筑師對(duì)明星身份不感興趣，而是更多的放到了發(fā)展項(xiàng)目上了�，F(xiàn)在我們有很好的龐大的建筑師團(tuán)隊(duì)，只要我們始終如一地做出好質(zhì)量的設(shè)計(jì)，最終便能夠提供更多的有價(jià)值的好質(zhì)量的設(shè)計(jì)。因此比起只能提供“鉆石皇冠”的幾顆星星桂冠，這才是我們未來的城市更需要的。
【ABBS】： recently， Chinese architect Wang Su is awarded Pritz Prize， what do you think?
關(guān)于中國建筑師王澍獲得普利茲克建筑獎(jiǎng)，您是怎么看的？
【Markus Appenzelle】：Great! I did not have a chance to meet him yet， but I deeply admire his approach and his attitude。 His architectures – unlike those of almost all of his fashionable colleagues almost ignore the urbanisation frenzy and communicate calmness， solidity and eternity。 I think it was time that a Chinese architect receives this honour and it should be a sign for other Chinese architects that architecture of lasting values could be something to aspire to。
很棒！雖然我到現(xiàn)在都還沒有機(jī)會(huì)見他一面，但是我很佩服他的處理手法和態(tài)度。他的建筑----不像他的那些時(shí)髦的同行們，幾乎都忽視了城市化進(jìn)程的狂熱，忽略了與建筑冷靜的對(duì)話才是可靠和永恒的。我認(rèn)為中國建筑師是時(shí)候獲得他們應(yīng)有的尊敬了，這應(yīng)該是其他中國建筑師的標(biāo)桿，建筑永恒的價(jià)值可能是人人向往的事。
【ABBS】： you’ve been active in domestic and international seminars and events， what do you think are the differences between such events in China and Europe? Are there any suggestions or anticipations for Chinese architectural academic activities?
您一直活躍在國內(nèi)外各種學(xué)術(shù)組織和活動(dòng)中，那么您對(duì)覺得國內(nèi)外的活動(dòng)有什么區(qū)別，您對(duì)中國內(nèi)建筑學(xué)術(shù)活動(dòng)有什么建議或者期許？
【Markus Appenzelle】：Chinese are very active in organizing such events。 They are always perfectly organized but what I am often missing is a real discussion and a real fight for the best ideas and concepts。 It is very Un-Chinese to criticize directly and openly but professional discussions draw a lot of their quality and the quality of the outcome of such conferences from exactly that directness。 This does not mean that in Europe all gatherings are straight to the point。 Also there I see a trend to be polite just to avoid that one gets criticized oneself。 Personally I don’t mind hearing other people’s opinion about my own doing。 It helps staying sharp and reflecting about one’s own doing。 I think it would help Chinese architecture a great deal if one could establish a more direct form of architecture critique。
中國在組織這類的活動(dòng)上很活躍。一般這樣的活動(dòng)他們幾乎組織得都很完美，但是我常常想要和懷念的是一個(gè)真正的對(duì)話，一個(gè)有最好的思想碰撞的討論，哪怕是直率會(huì)得罪人的。但在這里，公開直接的批評(píng)顯的很不中國式，可其實(shí)這樣專業(yè)的討論會(huì)帶出他們很多的才能，恰恰是這種直率的學(xué)術(shù)活動(dòng)所展示出的這些東西才是有意義的。這并不意味著在歐洲舉行的學(xué)術(shù)會(huì)議和活動(dòng)就是直接切中要害的。我也看到很多表面的，趨于禮貌的觀點(diǎn)表達(dá)，那只是為了避免使自己受到批評(píng)。就我個(gè)人看來，我不介意聽到別人對(duì)我所做的事的看法。它有助于保持敏銳和沉思自己做的事。如果有人能建立一個(gè)更為直接的建筑評(píng)論形式，我想這對(duì)我們和對(duì)更多中國建筑師會(huì)有很大的幫助。
【ABBS】： do you have a plan for your next move or goal?
您下一步有什么動(dòng)作和打算呢？
【Markus Appenzelle】：The most important thing I learned in China in the last 10 years is that one should not make long term plans since everything changes constantly anyway。 Instead a fair portion of flexibility and spontaneity brings opportunities one would miss otherwise。 This does not mean that I do not have goals in life and unalienable values but it means that they are subject to constant review and adjustment。 On the business arriving at a stable basis of project for the new firm MLA+ is a goal。 On the education and research side I would love to write a book about the cultural underlay and the traditions and how they have a massive impact on contemporary Chinese city making。
在過去10年里我在中國學(xué)到的最重要的一件事就是計(jì)劃永遠(yuǎn)趕不上變化。相當(dāng)一部分的靈活性和自發(fā)性所帶來的機(jī)會(huì)是人們?cè)谄渌矫婵赡軙?huì)錯(cuò)過的。這并不意味著我生活中沒有目標(biāo)和固定的價(jià)值觀，他們處于不時(shí)的自我檢查和調(diào)節(jié)中。在業(yè)務(wù)方面，對(duì)于今后的MLA +的穩(wěn)定和發(fā)展是一個(gè)目標(biāo)。在教育和研究方面，我想寫一本關(guān)于文化和傳統(tǒng)的書，講述他們?nèi)绾螌?duì)當(dāng)代中國城市制造產(chǎn)生巨大的影響。
【ABBS】： you are teachers and regular lecturer in Berlage institute and London AA school， as well as some other European schools。 What do you think is the mission of architecture education?
您是鹿特丹貝拉格建筑學(xué)院的老師倫敦AA 學(xué)院的定期客座講師。也在歐洲其他建筑學(xué)院進(jìn)行講座。您認(rèn)為建筑教育的使命是什么？
【Markus Appenzelle】：The first and foremost mission is and has always been the education of architects – critical minds with the ability to translate given conditions， deficits and opportunities into spatial solutions of a high quality。 But I also see two more roles: The first is active participation in the cultural discourse about what architecture is and what is should be。 The second is to further increase the cross disciplinary and cross cultural importance of architecture as a tool to develop concepts and solutions not only for building problems but also for almost any other problem there is。
首先也是最重要的目的，也一直是建筑師教育的任務(wù)----擁有能夠?qū)⒔o出的一些條件，虧損和機(jī)會(huì)的關(guān)鍵思想轉(zhuǎn)化為一個(gè)高質(zhì)量的立體解決方案。但是我也看見了兩個(gè)更多的角色：第一個(gè)是主動(dòng)參加到關(guān)于建筑是什么和應(yīng)該是什么的這樣的文化討論中。第二個(gè)是作為一個(gè)提高理念和解決方案的工具，進(jìn)一步增加學(xué)科的交叉和建筑文化重要性的交叉，不僅僅是針對(duì)建筑，也包括所有其他的問題。
【ABBS】：please leave some words for the newly graduate architectural and planning students， as well as those young professionals who have just entered the field?
請(qǐng)給中國的建筑院校的學(xué)子以及剛剛從事建筑設(shè)計(jì)行業(yè)的年輕建筑師幾句話。
【Markus Appenzelle】：
1。Develop your own view of the world and verify that view by actually visiting other places。
2。Stay open and stay curious – then the world is full of excitement
3。Be critical and question what you do but also what others do。
1、發(fā)展自己的世界觀，到各種地方證明你的觀點(diǎn)。
2、要有開拓的思想和旺盛的求知欲---你會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)世界充滿了令你興奮的事物。
3、以批評(píng)和疑問的態(tài)度來對(duì)待你自己或者其他人做的事。
Markus Appenzeller 馬故思
荷蘭注冊(cè)建筑師
2012-至今
MLA+ 事務(wù)所，鹿特丹，荷蘭
總監(jiān)
2009 – 至今
鹿特丹貝拉格學(xué)院 Berlage Institute
設(shè)計(jì)小組教授
2006 - 2011
KCAP 建筑師及規(guī)劃師，鹿特丹，荷蘭
國際項(xiàng)目總監(jiān)
2004 – 2006
OMA事務(wù)所，鹿特丹，荷蘭
項(xiàng)目負(fù)責(zé)人
2003 – 2004
Fink+Jocher Architekten，慕尼黑，德國
項(xiàng)目負(fù)責(zé)人
學(xué)術(shù)發(fā)展 Academic Training
2003 碩士 德國斯特加特大學(xué)
2000 交換項(xiàng)目，美國伊利諾伊科技大學(xué)
1995 法律，德國康斯坦茨大學(xué)
從屬 Affiliations
荷蘭注冊(cè)建筑師，國際城市及區(qū)域規(guī)劃師協(xié)會(huì)，德國國立Merit基金會(huì)
榮譽(yù)及獲獎(jiǎng)
2003 榮譽(yù)提名，項(xiàng)目“減=加”
2000 德國國立Merit基金會(huì)獎(jiǎng)學(xué)金
1999 Glastec獎(jiǎng)：創(chuàng)新方式使用玻璃
1999 Fischer獎(jiǎng)：優(yōu)秀設(shè)計(jì)
授課及會(huì)議
2012 “如果用文化群落激活城市”- 弗拉季高加索 （俄國）
“莫斯科的未來發(fā)展”- CCA莫斯科（俄國）
“利用大型活動(dòng)啟動(dòng)城市發(fā)展” – Floriade， Venlo （荷蘭）
2011 “所以你覺得你是城市學(xué)家？” – 代爾夫特理工大學(xué)POLIS學(xué)生論壇 – 代爾夫特 （荷蘭）
“東方崛起，亞洲新城” – 書評(píng)，深圳雙年展，深圳 （中國）
“城市生活質(zhì)量” – 城市論壇 -新西伯利亞 （俄國）
“公共空間的角色”- 城市未來論壇- 倫敦 （英國）
2010 “高層建筑的創(chuàng)始及演變”- SLiM講座，代爾夫特理工大學(xué)- 海牙 （荷蘭）
“奧林匹克遺產(chǎn)” - 代爾夫特理工大學(xué)-代爾夫特（荷蘭）
2009 “奧運(yùn)后的奧林匹克城市”- 北京建筑設(shè)計(jì)院六十年慶-北京（中國）
“奧林匹克之火-奧林匹克遺產(chǎn)” – Nai論壇-鹿特丹 （荷蘭）
“大學(xué)校園 – 不僅僅是一個(gè)類型” – Perm經(jīng)濟(jì)論壇 – Perm （俄國）
2008 “漢諾威與鹿特丹相遇” – 漢諾威大學(xué) – 漢諾威 （德國）
“學(xué)著如何做城市設(shè)計(jì)” – 慕尼黑科技大學(xué) – 慕尼黑 （德國）
“大學(xué)校園 – 一種類型的創(chuàng)始” – 建筑協(xié)會(huì) – 倫敦 （英國）
2007 “畢業(yè)五年后” – 城市設(shè)計(jì)講座系列- 斯圖加特（德國）
“皇家 – 城市的新成分？”- 暢想07會(huì)議-倫敦（英國）
2006 “倫敦碼頭區(qū)發(fā)展” – 門戶到未來論壇 – 倫敦 （英國）
2004 “城市、州、河流和海洋（或更多）- Grafisoft論壇 – 伯恩（德國）
“上虞新城”- 柏林理工大學(xué) – 柏林（德國）
“上虞 – 一個(gè)海上新城”- 巴登符騰堡州的建筑師論壇 – 斯圖加特（德國）
簡(jiǎn)介
自Markus職業(yè)生涯伊始，他就從事國際性到大型建筑及城市規(guī)劃項(xiàng)目。Markus的專業(yè)經(jīng)驗(yàn)包括十余年來從建筑設(shè)計(jì)到大尺度規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)的項(xiàng)目。他尤其在戰(zhàn)略性總體規(guī)劃框架的制定、實(shí)施、以及如何發(fā)展高品質(zhì)公共空間及建
筑到領(lǐng)域有特別建樹。
Markus是OMA倫敦白城項(xiàng)目到建筑師。在KCAP他是國際項(xiàng)目的主設(shè)計(jì)師及負(fù)責(zé)人，他參與了倫敦遺址公園到總體規(guī)劃及北京CBD地區(qū)的總體規(guī)劃。Markus帶領(lǐng)團(tuán)隊(duì)為深圳一中心區(qū)域制定了一個(gè)更新改造策略，為中國的城市轉(zhuǎn)型建立了一個(gè)新模型。
Markus 是倫敦AA 學(xué)院的定期客座講師。他還在歐洲其它幾個(gè)建筑學(xué)院進(jìn)行講座，目前他是鹿特丹貝拉格建筑學(xué)院的老師。在那里的研究主要是關(guān)于中等大小的歐洲城市的未來發(fā)展。
出版物
“高層建筑的創(chuàng)始及演變”， 高層及可持續(xù)發(fā)展城市，規(guī)劃系，代爾夫特理工大學(xué)，2012
“我們?nèi)绾胃淖兂鞘校鞘腥绾胃淖兾覀儭�，時(shí)代設(shè)計(jì)第41期，Johannesburg，2012
“舊邊界內(nèi)的新疆界”- 2012年2月期，莫斯科，2012
“David還是Goliath? – 在中國做業(yè)務(wù)”， DDFA年度報(bào)告，鹿特丹，2011
“當(dāng)今城市更新”， Topos 73，2010，慕尼黑，2010 |
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